Differences between VAR_FOut and VAR_POut

[Hesam]

Dear all,

Could someone please clarify the distinctions between the attributes var_fout and var_pout? If var_fout remains constant while var_pout changes over a period, what implications does this have for a power generation technology?

Best,
 Hesam

[Antti-L]

Var_Fout represents the standard flow reporting:  the levels of the flow variables.  These are in energy units, e.g. usually in PJ.
Var_Pout on the other hand represents the power levels. These are in power units, controlled by RPT_OPT(NRG_TYPE,'1') = factor, where the factor gives the unit conversion from power units to energy units (i.e. like PRC_CAPACT).  The power levels are obtained by dividing Var_Fout(s) by G_YRFR(s) and by the conversion factor.

Var_Fout can be summed over timeslices to get the annual flows. Var_Pout cannot be meaningfully summed over timeslices.

I don't see how Var_fout(s) could remain constant if Var_pout(s) changes over a period; I think that should not be possible.  If you have a reproducible case, I would be interested to see how that could be so... 

[Hesam]

Thank you for clarifying. While I had a similar understanding, the observed behavior was somewhat misleading. I'm currently working on JRC-EU-TIMES and will share a screenshot shortly. It could perhaps assist in identifying the cause of this behavior.

Additionally, it's noteworthy that the difference becomes more pronounced starting from the years when margins are particularly high.

[Antti-L]

Hmm... what should one be able to see in that screenshot? I cannot see the timeslice index, and so basically nothing useful...

[Hesam]

I am attaching an Excel file containing the details. I hope it proves helpful!

[Antti-L]

I am sorry but the Excel file is not very readable.  Below is an excerpt from the top:
 
"Scenario ModelName Studyname Attribute Commodity Process Period Region Vintage Timeslice Userconstraint Pv"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG ENSI_KRSKO-2 2050 SI 2050 - - -705.3376893"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG TB_ELCHIG_HU_SI_01 2050 SI 2050 - - 53.46137465"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG TRAGH2C04 2060 SI 2060 - - 1.052055454"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG SCOAH2GCC02 2060 SI 2060 - - -8.805862711"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG RSDGASH2C01 2060 SI 2060 - - 4.567641227"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EVTRANS_H-H 2050 SI 2050 - - 1351.796711"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG COMGASH2C01 2060 SI 2060 - - 5.135061748"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUWINONH01 2060 SI 2060 - - -0.017534062"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUPVSOLL101 2060 SI 2060 - - -0.179636083"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUNUCLifeExt 2060 SI 2060 - - -333.6572679"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUPVSOLL101 2060 SI 2040 - - -0.722778188"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUHYDLAKELE01 2060 SI 2040 - - -9.472806467"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUHYDLAKELC01 2060 SI 2040 - - -53.04783056"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG SCOAH2GCC02 2050 SI 2040 - - -3.091259481"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUPVSOLL101 2050 SI 2040 - - -2.260187044"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUHYDLAKELE01 2050 SI 2040 - - -11.56293817"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG EUHYDLAKELC01 2050 SI 2040 - - -64.75251781"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG PUSCSCOL1 2060 SI 2060 - - -57.58410512"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG ENSI_KRSKO-2 2060 SI 2060 - - -582.0170502"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG TB_ELCHIG_SI_HR_01 2060 SI 2060 - - 2.277128827"
"bau_a12_highdumimpcost EU_TIMES_Veda2.0-master pilot_runs Val_Flo ELCHIG TB_ELCHIG_HU_SI_01 2060 SI 2060 - - 33.83997246"

I wonder how you produced this Excel file: Does VEDA produce such an unreadable file?
Could you not try and save the table in a readable form, and with the timeslice dimension expanded?

[Hesam]

I apologize for any confusion. I encountered an error while attaching the CSV file after extracting it from VEDA. Subsequently, I converted the file to Excel format myself. Now, I'm attaching the updated file for your reference.

[Antti-L]

Thank you. 
Actually I managed to convert also the first one into a readable format.

Anyway, I cannot see anything suspicious in the results:  All the ratios Var_Pout(s) / Var_Fout(s) are constant over years.  And so it looks like I cannot confirm your findings.  To me, the Var_Pout results look fully as expected (even though I don't have your timeslice durations or conversion factors).

[Hesam]

I performed the conversion, but I've noticed fluctuating ratios, as illustrated here. I am attaching the previous file with the ratios, as well as a new file that incorporates time slices.

Best regards,

[Antti-L]

I can see that you are calculating ratios from the sums over timeslices. But that makes no sense (I already tried to point that out). The power levels are timeslice-specific, and cannot be meaningfully summed over timeslices.

For each individual timeslice, the power-to-flow ratios are constant, as expected.

[Hesam]

I understand. That's unfortunate. Given that the description of VAR_POut by VEDA indicates "commodity output level by process", I was presuming it is just a converted value to give output in common units of electricity such as MWh. However, it appears to represent power capacity, aligning with VAR_FOut. Nonetheless, I appreciate your clarification. 

Thank you

[Antti-L]

Ok, thanks for clarifying the confusion.
Yes, I understand that such a brief description can be misleading. But there would be no point in reporting flows in different units, because VEDA can do such unit conversions on the fly. However, VEDA would not so easily be able do the conversion to power levels, and that is why this reporting attribute has been added.  You can turn it off if you see no use for Var_Pout.

Unit conversions that give the flows in any desired units (such as MWh, GWh, TWh, Btu, Gcal, ktoe, tce, ...) are always available in VEDA for any result tables.