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+--- Thread: PCG for CHP plants (/showthread.php?tid=663)
PCG for CHP plants - Anna (AKR) - 28-05-2018
Dear Veda forum I have problems with some of the CHP plants in my model (CHP in which CEH=1, i.e. the activity and capacity represents the total capacity (electricity + heat)). For some of the CHP, I receive the bellow “VDA_Flop_LogData” message, in which the PCG members seem to be missing/deleted. The strange thing is that only some of the CHPs show up in the list below, while other similar CHPs don't. VEDA/TIMES seems to be able to recognizance PCG in CHPs with “ELCMED & HETHTH” as outputs, but not with “ELCMED & HETLAR/HETMED/HETMED/…”. (HETLAR/HETMED/HETMED/… are different types of DH-networks). (and shouldn’t VEDA/TIMES be able to identify the Primary Commodity Group (PCG) of CHPs)? What am I doing "wrong"? What am I missing? All the best Anna From log-file: VDA_Flop_LogData.log Records Deleted: VDA_FLOP declarations for PCG members Scenario // Region // Process // Commodity // CommGrp // ValField // BASE,SE,CHPINDBPLPG100,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPLPG100,HETLAR,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPNGS100,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPNGS100,HETLAR,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPNGS500,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPNGS500,HETMSO,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPRFG100,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPRFG100,HETLAR,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPRFG200,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPRFG200,HETMLB,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPRFG500,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,CHPINDBPRFG500,HETMSO,-,1 BASE,SE,PUBPBGS100,ELCMED,-,1 BASE,SE,PUBPBGS100,HETLAR,-,1 BASE,SE,PUBPBGS200,ELCMED,-,1 ….
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Antti-L - 28-05-2018
You have somehow defined Input / Output coefficients (=VDA_FLOP) for the members of the primary group. You cannot define such parameters for the PCG members, and that's why they are deleted. The primary group is defined in the ~FI_Process table, which is not related to these messages at all. (Or if that is left blank, I guess all the NRG outputs are assumed to be in the PCG.) If still confused, can you show a screenshot of the process parameters as defined in your Excel file?
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Anna (AKR) - 28-05-2018
(28-05-2018, 07:25 PM)Antti-L Wrote: You have somehow defined Input / Output coefficients (=VDA_FLOP) for the members of the primary group. You cannot define such parameters for the PCG members, and that's why they are deleted. The primary group is defined in the ~FI_Process table, which is not related to these messages at all. (Or if that is left blank, I guess all the NRG outputs are assumed to be in the PCG.) If still confused, can you show a screenshot of the process parameters as defined in your Excel file?I am still confused
The ProcessCG in the he ~FI_Process table is blank (but I have played around with it before, and then it sometimes didn't generate the message).
Those CHP used to work (in previous runs that I have done), but are now suddenly (this year) not working any more (will generate output without having any input).
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Antti-L - 28-05-2018
Ok, I tried myself with similar processes defined in the DEMO model. I can also see the VDA_Flop_LogData messages, but these are only warnings. You appear to be using the Output~ELCMED and Output~HETLAR just for defining the topology, which I would say is not really recommended, but I can see it does seem to work! So, I think that for that part you have nothing serious to worry about. But because you say that the processes generate output without having any input, I suspect that the IND* input commodities for these processes may perhaps not be defined, either in that template, or in SysSettings? Can you check about that?
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Anna (AKR) - 28-05-2018
(28-05-2018, 08:44 PM)Antti-L Wrote: Ok, I tried myself with similar processes defined in the DEMO model. I can also see the VDA_Flop_LogData messages, but these are only warnings. You appear to be using the Output~ELCMED and Output~HETLAR just for defining the topology, which I would say is not really recommended, but I can see it does seem to work! So, I think that for that part you have nothing serious to worry about. But because you say that the processes generate output without having any input, I suspect that the IND* input commodities for these processes may perhaps not be defined, either in that template, or in SysSettings? Can you check about that?What do you mean with IND* input commodities? Is it the ELC* energy commodities? If yes, then they are all defined in the B-Y template. I have an additional question (which I have thought of as one reason when CHPs are not working). I assume that I should specify/define if an energy commodities is an heat or ELC energy commodities!? If yes, how do you do this in the best manner? (by using "Output~....", the table becomes more "condense")
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Antti-L - 28-05-2018
I meant the INDGAS, INDLPG and INDRFG commodities, which are the input fuels to these CHP processes that you have specifically pointed out. But yes, you must also define the ELCMED commodity to be characterized as ELC in the FI_Comm table. The heat commodity can also be defined as LTHEAT/HTHEAT, but that is not necessary for CHP, only the NRG type is.
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Anna (AKR) - 29-05-2018
(28-05-2018, 09:19 PM)Antti-L Wrote: I meant the INDGAS, INDLPG and INDRFG commodities, which are the input fuels to these CHP processes that you have specifically pointed out. But yes, you must also define the ELCMED commodity to be characterized as ELC in the FI_Comm table. The heat commodity can also be defined as LTHEAT/HTHEAT, but that is not necessary for CHP, only the NRG type is.Both IND* and ELC* are defined (I double checked). (The list included both CHP plants in the ELC sector and in the IND sector, all defined in the ELC B-Y template. This seems to work, but please let me know if this is not allowed). Thank you for clarifying how to define ELC and Heat commodities, I seem to have done it the correct way. I still have some CHP technologies that don’t have an input in the results (When in VEDA_BE, I am creating a new clean table, looking at input and output NRG commodities for CHP* and PU* technologies). Most CHPs (CHP* and PU*) have input, but not CHPs with gas as input (e.g. ELCNGS, ELCBGS, INDGAS). (I have checked the input commodities are defined). (I don’t get the warning mentioned above when writing NRG in the PCG when defining the technologies (~Process). Therefore, I will keep it that way (and minimize the log files), if nothing is wrong with that way of defining the CHP processes. Nevertheless, then VDA flop is created, can this cause problems?)
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Antti-L - 29-05-2018
Hmm... "when writing NRG in the ProcessCG when defining the technologies (~Process)."? Do you mean that you now define NRG as the PCG? That would be bad, because then the NRG inputs would be in the PCG as well... So, I definitely suggest not to do so. Anyway, if you have narrowed down the problem to ELCNGS, ELCBGS, INDGAS inputs, that's great. Let me know if there is anything else I could do to help.
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Anna (AKR) - 29-05-2018
(29-05-2018, 03:20 AM)Antti-L Wrote: Hmm... "when writing NRG in the ProcessCG when defining the technologies (~Process)."? Do you mean that you now define NRG as the PCG? That would be bad, because then the NRG inputs would be in the PCG as well... So, I definitely suggest not to do so. Anyway, if you have narrowed down the problem to ELCNGS, ELCBGS, INDGAS inputs, that's great. Let me know if there is anything else I could do to help.Oky, I will remove NRG from PrimaryCG (what is crossed-over in the picture)
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Anna (AKR) - 29-05-2018
(29-05-2018, 03:32 AM)AnnA Wrote:Now all CHP technologies (CHP* and PU*) seems to have both input and output in the result(29-05-2018, 03:20 AM)Antti-L Wrote: Hmm... "when writing NRG in the ProcessCG when defining the technologies (~Process)."? Do you mean that you now define NRG as the PCG? That would be bad, because then the NRG inputs would be in the PCG as well... So, I definitely suggest not to do so. Anyway, if you have narrowed down the problem to ELCNGS, ELCBGS, INDGAS inputs, that's great. Let me know if there is anything else I could do to help.Oky, I will remove NRG from PrimaryCG (what is crossed-over in the picture)
After I cleared (= left empty) all PrimaryCG (PCG) for all CHP technologies in the ~Process table
& re-imported the files (and will just have to coop with getting the VDA_Flop_LogData.log)
& re-imported all scenario files that updated any CHP parameters.
Thank you for the support
RE: PCG for CHP plants - Antti-L - 29-05-2018
Thanks for the good news. You can also use NRGO as the PCG in the ~FI_Process table as the Primary CG (NRG outputs). But I don't see that having any impact on the VDA_FLOP warnings, they are still generated. However, I am no VEDA expert, and I guess only the Kanors staff could shed some light on that.